Sunday, May 30, 2010

Betrayal

How do you define betrayal? Is is just another subjective thing that is different to all people? Or is it something more finite, measurable in one's behavior? Is it different for all of us? Or is it a constant? Do you know it when it happens to you? Or are you stuck wondering what it is that's happening? Is it different for family members? Or the same no matter whose the transgressions?

I find myself wondering all these things and more. If my daughter continues to do business and socialize with someone who has harmed me in any way, is that ok? Or is that a betrayal? Or does it really matter what the harm was? I'd like to know.

It seems to me that as long as she continues to do business and socialize with them knowing what they have done and what they continue to do, that she is taking sides. She claims she is not. How can she not be? Why would she not be might be the better question? Isn't it a question of loyalty? If she keeps that connection to them, isn't she being disloyal to me?

Does family mean nothing? Or maybe it is our family that means nothing to her? Maybe I mean nothing to her? That's how it feels anyway. I can't even define it. All I know is it feels wrong to me. Now what am I going to do about it? I guess that is the biggest question of all.

15 comments:

TinaM said...

That's a hard one. I would say betrayal is probably the same for anyone, the basics anyway. When someone you trust, hurts you and makes them now untrustable, that is betrayal...
I think you are right to be upset if your daughter is still interacting with someone who betrayed you... especially if it isn't family...
I have the opposite problem. My mother is now taking with someone who betrayed me. But this someone happens to be HER mother (my former grandmother.) So while I completely agree with you and think your daughter should be loyal to you... I am not mad at my mom for talking with her mother. (only worried SHE will get hurt again)
You should sit down and tell her how much this hurts your feelings. Explain it. Ask her how she would feel if it were YOU still dealing with someone who betrayed her...

*M said...

Ugh. Bad situation...

If someone is cruel to a member of my family, they are persona non grata from that point onwards. Period.

Betrayal...When something hurts, and there is no apology.

Rising Rainbow said...

TinaM, I have sat down with my daughter and explained how I feel. Have also explained in great detail the wrong against me. She still seems to think what she is doing is appropriate.

M, you're right, it is a bad situation.

For me too, when someone harms one of my family in any way, that's it for me.

dinkleberries said...

I would guess your daughter is trying to be independent of you. My thinking is that depending on this person's character, it is likely that it is only a matter of time until she is also betrayed.
My dh is friends with a couple where the wife is so controlling she tells her husband how he feels. One day she called me up and told me if I didn't stop controlling my husband he would divorce me, God told her so!! If I controlled dh, their friendship would have been over at that point. Now, prolly 15 years later, she's pulled her magic again, but this time, he got bit, needless to say, I find it a bit funny.
All I can say is, Patience, my friend, Patience!

Terri said...

I am sorry for your pain. I have always said you can walk all over me and I can take it. Mess with someone I love, you are in deep sh*t!!!
Is your daughter a mom? Sometimes that is what it takes for our own children to understand ALL the times they thought we were being unreasonable.........
well.......maybe not after all.
I know I had to become a Mom myself before I truly understood my own mother. Boy, did I have LOTS of crow to eat.
And so it goes......................

Rising Rainbow said...

dinkleberries, I think you are right. It probably will only be a matter of time before she is betrayed as well.

Terri, I'm very loyal. Mess with my friends or family and you mess with me.

As for my daughter, she is a mom. It hasn't changed her thinking one bit. She has never and probably never will take responsibility for anything she's done.

mago said...

You put up some tough questions, I'm still thinking about guilt, from some posts before.
Betrayal is playing a role in my actual situation, has too much room actually ... I feel betrayed by someone who is (was?) close to me, not blood-related (blutsverwandt), kind of stepson (maybe?). Part of me wants to "explain" and "make peace"; but the damage (emotional, trust) is too large; and I have a character-flaw, I am unable to forgive; I do not like the whole situation and I do not like my (potential and most likely) reaction; but I must act, mostly for reasons from outside; I know that I need more time, I have none; I will most liekly put on my knights armour and beat the shit out of the little bastard - verbally, not litterally; in fact I am too tired and hurt to do this and it can be seen as cheap revenge; I put myself out in a way I do not want; it is all about responsibility and I blame myself for not being good enough in education, upbringing, I was too quiet for some time (ironically out of loyality); loyality is one of the most precious things, I grew up with it, I am deeply "coined" by this; my "blood"-family is dead (nothing tragic, they only died, early) and I simply transferred all the values onto this family I am a part of; because of a personal binding to one of "them" ... sounds and feels strange; I am not used to disloyality, to an attack from within; maybe I was wrong for the last twenty years; anyway, end of Juno all will be cleared.
I am sorry Rainbow for slamming this here on your blog, but I need to write it down, I am sorry.

Rising Rainbow said...

mago, no need to apologize here. I have the same character flaw, if that's what you want to call it. It is not easy for me to forgive. I understand how you feel and I am glad you shared. Helps me to know others are struggling with this too.

jumpinginpuddles said...

is it betrayle or is it your daughter being in competition with you. it seems she wants to compete with you for whatever reason and maybe she doesnt mind who she runs with as long as it runs you down. Just our two cents worth.

Rising Rainbow said...

JIP, You're right about the competitive side of this. She's always felt the need to compete with me although I don't know why. But that doesn't change the betrayal aspect of her behavior. When you side with those who intend to do or have done harm with our family you have betrayed them no matter what your motivation.

dinkleberries said...

Forgiveness. There are those who would accuse me of being unforgiving. Then there are those who forgive easily and continue to get run over and worse yet let the little one's in the picture get run over.
I understand forgiving is a choice. But why should we forgive someone that is not sorry let alone repentant?
And the Creator of the Universe? Does he unconditionally forgive everyone regardless of attitude or behavior? Will they all have a place in His Heaven for eternity? How DOES this forgiveness thing work? Are we to keep a different standard than the Creator Himself? How does one forgive and keep good boundaries to stop the damage from continuing? If one chooses not to forgive, how do you keep that from eating you up and disrupting your sleep? Just some things that I struggle with concerning forgiveness.

Ivory said...

The way I feel about betrayal is like being pregnant. Either you are, or you aren't. There is no measure of betrayal, it's all or nothing, is or is not betrayal.

I struggle with the same question about family loyalty. Again, it's there, or it's not. Life is so difficult.

Rising Rainbow said...

dinkleberries, you have a point about the Creator and forgiveness. From what I understand those that are unrepetentent will be cast into the depths of hell.

Sometimes I wonder if heaven is even a place I want to be if my mother will be there. But then I think the only way she will be there is if she finally has taken responsibility for her actions which is all I have ever asked of her. I think if she would step up, my feelings about her would change. The same is true of those others that I have not forgiven. They have not taken any responsiblity either. So whose flaw is that, there's or mine?

Ivory, I agree with you. I guess the problem I have is wondering if it really is betrayal or it just feels like it to me. Because I can over react sometimes, I'm not sure if this is one of those times or if I really have been betrayed.

Linny Kenney said...

Hey there...I thought about this for a while and I think there is more to be said than can be answered in a little comment, but I think you would both feel better if you were able to accept that your daughter's relationship with this person is different than yours.

I think it is natural to want someone who is family to join you in disliking someone who has wronged you, but it really should never be expected of another person, especially your child.

She is telling you that she doesn't feel like she is betraying you which means that her communication with this person is not out of a desire to hurt you.

Her love for you is not going to grow out of a joined effort to dislike this person and as a mother I don't think you would want her to carry the weight of your disdain. It is not her burden to carry and it in no way is a sign of her loyalty to you or her love for you.

Mothers and daughters have relationships like no other and maybe you can take comfort in that. In the end she needs your strength and support more than anything else. Nothing would be gained out of her carrying just a little more hate for someone and no one should ever feel pressure to hate or carry anger. It is always better to let of these feelings, always. Maybe instead of trying to get her to join your anger, focus more on letting go of it yourself.

However, I think out of respect for you, her relationship with this person could stay between them if it causes you to much pain to hear about it. That is totally understandable.

Rising Rainbow said...

Linny Kenney, I appreciate your input and I think the things you have said about relationships and expectations are accurate. However, I don't think they apply to this situation. I was asking a lot of questions. I didn't say I had the answers, only the questions. I think you have made the assumption that I have decided where I am on this issue and I have not as well as assumptions about how I feel and what my expectations are.

I do not hate these people nor am I expecting my daugher to do the same. Nor do I expect her relationship with them to be the same as mine. I would never do that. She is entitled to her feelings whatever they might be.

There are some things about my daughter you have assumed as well. I won't go into those but I will say this is a very complicated situation. There are a lot of things I am not posting nor will I in this public forum. That information would make this whole question a lot clearer for those reading here but it's just not going to happen.

Suffice it to say the loyalty I would like from my child would not be considered inappropriate by a professional. If all the facts were known they probably wouldn't be considered inappropriate by you.

I work very hard to be sure that my expectations are reasonable. I also don't expect my children to live their lives on my terms. Wanting to behave in an appropriate manner was actually at the root of this post. I was trying to process the information and asking for some input for checks and balances. As I said before, I still have not decided where I stand. This whole thing is too complicated and the jury is still out as to where my daughter is in this whole thing.